Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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658Greninja

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Hydreigon @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel/Dragon/Fairy/Poison/Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 88 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power/Flash Cannon/Stealth Rock/Taunt

Lowkey underrated in this metagame. You can’t sleep on big daddy Dreigon. It has plenty of valuable traits. Such as…

-Ground Immunity + Spikes immunity

-Decent 92/90/90 bulk

-Speed Tier gets the jump on Tusks, Ghold, Quaval, and Glimm.

-Dark/Dragon typing granting it resistances to Dark, Fire, Electric, Ghost, Grass, and Water.

-Strongest Draco in a tier where fairies are reduced to Tera types, Hatt who doesn’t resist Dark, Valiant who is hella frail, Grimm who is only on HO, and Azu.

-Great coverage options with NP and 125 SpA to boot.

-Great utility options in Rocks, Taunt, T-Wave, and U-Turn.

-Pairs perfectly with one of the best mons in the tier Ghold. They cover each other’s weaknesses perfectly, with Hydreigon’s raw power and Ghold’s ability to block Defog/Spin, Hydrei can form a hazard core. Plus Hydrei helps to wear down its main checks in Ting-Lu, Clod, and Pex.

-With Taunt it completely stomps on Ting-Lu and Clodsire. Denying Whirlwind/Toxic and hazard setting attempts.

-The Tera potential feels customizable. Tera Steel to obligate the obvious Fairy, Dragon weaknesses while being immune to Toxic and making Flash Cannon stronger. Tera Dragon to make its Dracos into nukes. Tera Fairy to offset the Fighting weakness, letting it 1v1 Tusks. Tera Poison remove its Fairy and Fighting weakness, make it immune to Toxic, and 1v1 Tusks. Tera Water for an emergency rain check, granting it STAB on Surf as a potential option to put Ting-Lu in a world of hurt or to make Pao’s life choices slightly more difficult.

This is only the NP set. I haven’t even mentioned Specs which turns Draco into an absolute nuke while having the coverage to blast away Tera Fairy Garg, Corv, and Gambit. Ironically the mon that resists both its STABs, Chi-Yu actually puts it into the shadows, being everything Hydrei is but better. Hydrei has made comebacks every generation since BW, and it won’t be much different once the fish gets deep fried. Y’all aren’t gonna be ready for Hydrei.


Sources reveal Garganacl will be on the tiering radar.
Garg is honestly the lesser of the evils talked about when it comes to potentially broken mons like Ape, Pao, Cyclizar, etc. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was suspected. Its almost impossible to deny Garg progress without Covert Cloak or Regen cores. Being incredibly difficult to OHKO due to its bulk. ID + BP being a dangerous wincon when left unchecked. Tera Water, Fairy, and even Poison make it even more of a hassle to handle. Easily Top 5 in the meta imo, there are many opportunity costs to not using Garg.
 
Ough, the fuck did I miss?

...nice.
Anyways, re: ape, why is it bad that it, and gholdengo, and most wallbreakers, break walls? Like, every "problem" pokemon ive seen for this gen, and do bring up any that arent this, are either wallbreakers, or dondozo/garganacl. Is the fish too much? Probably, I mean it hits harder than fucking mega mewtwo, and is fast enough to stream snipe hydreigon, and everything base 99.
Everything else, probably not as bad since the ape dies to being 2hko, the string cheese is dying to Landorus-Tusk, and... fuck thats all I can remember.
Anyways, wallbreakers in a meta deficit of walls. Isnt Toxapex UU? Could really use that wet bastich about now.
The problem isn't that they are just wallbreakers. The problem is that they are team killers.
Chi yu is obviously more noticeable because all it is is click button kill pokemon but ape is 100% a problem.
You'll never know what set it is until it's too late, it has the highest base power move in the game, hyper scales by existing. Makes chipping away at it impossible, and so much more.

Ape is a problem because it deletes entire playstyles, not just walls.
 
Ape and Fish are 2 no brainer bans especially with legal tera. Fish hacks in extra effective special attack with its ability while having a solid speed tier while Ape cheats in a switchblade with how versatile its really strong sets are.

They're also a primary reason why some people may have wanted to wait to action Tera - so once those threats are gone we can revisit Tera most likely.
 
Holy shit, over 300 messages on here in just a few hours. I didn't vote and would have been just fine with team preview but am pretty happy seeing no action on tera. I've really enjoyed both watching and playing this gen so far, plus the absolute hysteria over this decision is fucking hilarious.
 

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why is it bad that it, and gholdengo, and most wallbreakers, break walls?
because they do quite literally everything else you could want a Pokemon to do as well. Wallbreakers are meant to break walls and Annihilape and Gholdengo both to varying degrees easily and effortlessly dismantle entire teams while simultaneously having some of the best defensive profiles in the tier bolstered further by Tera. Not only do they break without being able to be broken by others, they completely shut down passive attempts of breaking by using Taunt and BECOMING STRONGER IF YOU HIT THEM or being COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO ALL STATUS MOVES. Nobody is mad that "wallbreakers break walls" this isn't some big stall agenda, these Pokemon completely shred balances with zero regard for skill expression or team roles.
 
because they do quite literally everything else you could want a Pokemon to do as well. Wallbreakers are meant to break walls and Annihilape and Gholdengo both to varying degrees easily and effortlessly dismantle entire teams while simultaneously having some of the best defensive profiles in the tier bolstered further by Tera. Not only do they break without being able to be broken by others, they completely shut down passive attempts of breaking by using Taunt and BECOMING STRONGER IF YOU HIT THEM or being COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO ALL STATUS MOVES. Nobody is mad that "wallbreakers break walls" this isn't some big stall agenda, these Pokemon completely shred balances with zero regard for skill expression or team roles.

I wanna note further that a major issue is that between the two they have a major shared Chi-yu weakness... which, as previously noted, is atleast being suspected if not outright quickbanned. I suspect you see both mons shoot up even stronger in power post-chi-yu, and potentially post-shed tail; (as they are two of the strongest mons in the tier atm before shed tail support, and arguably don't need it, so the mons that need it more to set up will become weaker in comparison.)
 
Everyone who is upset that Tera is remaining (can’t relate myself) due to a razor thin vote, remember that this vote was pretty stacked against No Action. Action had multiple options from outright ban to reveal at team preview.

With Tera staying, I am excited to see how the metagame evolves. And now that we had out little Tera suspect, we can now talk about really broken Pokemon.
 

RoiDadadou

I COULD BE BANNED!
Also, please be nice to each other. We may all have different takes and views on this mechanic, this generation, or this whole game.
But it's just a game. I'm seeing things I really don't like over the forums, for a tight vote on a ""child's game"".
Keep cool and be chill you all :blobthumbsup:
 
Sources reveal Garganacl will be on the tiering radar.
Garganacl isn’t even comparable to the other annoying things. It needs a lot more turns to be frustrating, and usually a Tera. Not even in the same ballpark as chi-yu (can’t switch in) and chien pao (more speed, less power).

chi yu is at the point where one clever double switch in a game will give you an all-but guaranteed win, as the opponent is possibly going to sack/maim something.

chien pao is at the point where you’re probably gonna be reactively using Tera just to be able to survive it and KO back, unless you’re ready to stack 3 checks to it.

annihilape is an interesting one, as it’s definitely powerful, tho it needs 2 turns to be painful. So you can actually deal with it without running a dedicated wall, you can beat it with offense/bulky Pokémon/hazards/2nd effects. But not stall.. lol!



edit: here’s a replay from a game I just played that shows how devastating chi-yu is. The rest of the threats aren’t even in the same conversation.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763252969

the torch song was the first opportunity to bring it in, and it was easy to capitalise on the opponents misplay. They wasted a Tera and the Pokémon that used it. Soon after, I made a high risk u turn play on the dondozo to position the chi yu back in for round two.

the nail in the coffin was the misplay from the opponent with rapid spin on the great tusk, they just couldn’t get back any momentum. the game ended up being 6-0. I know it’s a 1700s game with a few misplays which might explain the one sidedness, tho chi yu enabled the outcome effortlessly.

to beat chi yu, it’s done offensively, and you usually get only 1-2 switchins per game, max. In the following example you can see how Garchomp is used, which can survive exactly one hit from non-modest specs variants.

here’s an example of denying a chi yu any momentum (1800s):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763262612-8f8j1f2sr7vq46eroexpxbr6gm8h1z6pw

unfortunately, as any chi yu user has probably learnt by now, one of its best partners is corviknight. The list of Pokémon that can deal with the 1-2 whammy is not long. You need very aggressive double switching and positioning to deny momentum to a corviknight + specs chi yu



Here’s a 1500s replay I just watched that demonstrates how besting a chien pao often requires you to Tera on the spot… this guy has a specs slowbro so managed to OHKO back. Interesting set and funny game to watch https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763266938

here’s another 1500s game I watched where Tera had to be used to counter a chien pao https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763270642

just watched a 1700s game, where once again.. the defensive Tera came out as a response to chien pao. Lol, here’s the replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1763279231

any experience chien pao user will simply learn that they can scout out opponents responses to see if they can bait things like a Tera. Then.. come back and win later. It’s a little different to Chi Yu, almost as broken, and much faster, so it can be more of an end game threat.
 
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Not mad about the result despite voting full Ban. At least I will be able to use fun Teras like Electric Pawmot, Water Glaceon, Fire Slither Wing or Fairy Wo Chien.

Now, the broken monkey has to go. He would have to go even without Tera, but with Tera he is even more broken. The fish of course has to go to, despite being easier to handle that the monkey. And finally Cyclizar, I have been seeing less of this, but he is still unhealthy. Even without Shed Tail taken into account, I just don't want to have such fast Regenerator Mon with Knock Off and U-Turn in the meta.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Now that the voting for tera, I wonder how long it is going to take for them to update the radar.

I am going to miss chi-yu when it gets banned.

Not because I think it is balanced but because I can get a OHKO with breloom on this thing and the less ppokem there are are that breloom can beat the harder it becomes to justify using it.

Also I am afraid that banning super strong pokemon like chi-yu may buff the defensive playstyles making the game more boring.
 
Garganacl isn’t even comparable to the other annoying things. It needs a lot more turns to be frustrating, and usually a Tera. Not even in the same ballpark as chi-yu (can’t switch in) and chien pao (more speed, less power).

With Tera, though, it definitely deserves to at least be on the radar. Even though I also think it's fine, it's definitely on the upper bounds of it, and it can get out of control in ways very few other pokemon can.

Salt Man's bulk looks more like something from Ubers than a 500 BST mon, and it's got status immunity and reliable recovery to go with it. It might need Tera to reach its full potential, but plenty of mons do - it's just generically capable of advancing your gameplan.
 
So here's what I think about potential future tiering action:

QB: Chi-Yu
Yeah fuck the fish. I don't even think there's that much discussion about them

Suspect: Ape, Shed Tail/Cyclizar, Chien-Pao
No surprises here. I don't think any of them are particularly busted, but the community does see these fellas as (potential) problems, I am sure however that none are bad enough to get QB'd. I am also rather sure that Shed Tail won't be suspected, and instead Cyclizar will be, as Orthworm can be really good but is much harder to use and less enabling

I don't think there's action needed beyond frankly. I can see new Tera suspects when Home and/or DLC drops. Didn't manage to get reqs but I would've voted for TP. Gholdengo seemed oppressive for a while but I think it's manageable now, especially with bunny being back. Garg is amazing but also no big problem, I also think he helps the meta's health by actively punishing water and steel types and being a great defensive backbone in Balance teams
 
At least I will be able to use fun Teras like Electric Pawmot, Water Glaceon, Fire Slither Wing or Fairy Wo Chien.
:tymp:

We were about to hit 15 pages, too...

Anyway, looking forward to the imminent quickbans as well. Especially the fish, like everyone else I imagine. And maybe the ape. Also glad to see Garganacl is starting to worry people as well. No idea if it's broken, I'm not very good at teambuilding but I have to admit ending up stonewalled by it way more often than I like to admit (get it? stonewalled?)
 
59.26%

Jesus Christ...

You can ACTUALLY Blame UU :zonger:

Oh well, moving on, fish needs to go, shed tail definitely is problematic, I don't personally think the lizard is the issue and can be a cool spinner, but shed tail enables too much. Removing shed tail would nerf a lot of the setup sweepers quite a bit, and perhaps screens can be looked at. If tera is going to stay removing utility enabling all the broken mons would be a better direction than outright banning half the tier.

I don't find chien-pao that broken yet, its a strong fast offensive mon but that's not really new, I'd like to see how the meta develops once fish and edgy monkey go.
 
Should just QB the fish and see how the meta develops. Keep banning things and then we will be 100 pages later complaining how garganacl has no counters. Although I think Home is gonna bring back a Pokémon being banned because there will be more variety to check.
 
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